Missouri Wind and Solar video

I mostly like everything that people do with small wind turbines, especially hands-on and do-it-yourself, so I got excited to discover Missouri Wind and Solar, and I watched this video that I found on the home page with interest.

Unfortunately I was a bit disappointed as there was almost nothing the Jeff said that could begin to agree with.  Here are just some of the main points of disagreement.  If anyone wants to chime in and explain what Jeff was thinking of I would be grateful but to be honest I am afraid I just don’t get it 🙁

  • AC versus DC transmission in cables.  At 4.40 Jeff states that “3-phase AC output, you can simply use an extension cord and run it 200 feet with literally no loss whatsoever.”  In fact the 3-phase AC cable supplying a rectifier has to carry the same current as the DC cables that follow after, but the difference is that they are only working part time.  So you need 3 wires the same size as the two DC ones would be to achieve the same efficiency.  I wonder if Jeff has tried putting 50 amps of AC down his extension cord, or maybe not.  I mostly use AC transmission and my rule of thumb is that for the same voltage you need the same wire size for AC as you do for DC (to have the same power losses).
  • Solid core wiring.  At 6.50 Jeff says to never use solid core wiring for DC current.  I think he has some garbled idea about skin effect however this only affects AC current, and at low frequencies it would only be significant at huge wire sizes having solid cores 3/4″ or more thick.  solid core wire will work fine for AC or DC.  Often stranded wire is easier to work with but weight for weight they have the same resistance.  the coils in the alternator are wound with solid core wires.  I use both types of wire on AC and on DC.
  • Seven blades will start at lower windspeeds.  AT 8.50 Jeff contends that 3-bladed wind turbines cannot start in low winds whereas machines with multiple blades can start at lower windspeeds.  In fact the start-up depends also on the friction in the seals, the losses in the stator core, and above all upon the diameter of the blades.  Blade diameter matters more than blade number, and this is not something Jeff mentions at all.  You can use more blades to get more torque (at lower rpm) to overcome friction etc (and to sell more blades), but the key to low wind performance is large blade diameter (longer blades to catch more wind).  A multi-blade will turn slowly in low winds but there is no real power to be had from small rotors in low winds, and the rpm is too low as well.
  • Odd numbers of blades.  At 10.40 things get really bizarre when Jeff tells us that blade rotors need to have odd number of blades.  I wonder if he ever heard of the old Dutch windmills with 4 blades? 2-bladers have their issues with vibration which you can read about elsewhere but they are faster than 3-bladers.  For many years (1970s and 80s) when I needed maximum rpm speed I only made 2-bladers.  3-bladers run more smoothly and if you don’t have excessive friction or a tiny diameter then 3 is all you need.  Odd or even makes no difference.
  • Blade pitch and stall.  At 14.30 Jeff tells us about aluminum blades with coarse pitch.  He claims that “at 15 mph these blades will throw themselves out of the wind and stall”.  In fact the coarse pitch is a good strategy for a low speed, high torque blade rotor.  If you combine the large pitch of these blades with the large blade number that Jeff uses (to achieve the low wind start-up) then you would get the best result for an efficient low speed rotor, suitable for pumping water etc.  The problem is not “stall” in this case but simply coarse pitch which limits rpm.  Rpm in relation to windspeed is determined by “tip speed ratio” and these aluminum blades are designed to work at low tip speed ratio so they need a very slow generator to work well.  Stall however is the opposite problem, when high speed rotors (with a flat pitch angle and fewer blades) have too much load torque holding them back so they cannot achieve their best (high) tip speed in relation to the wind.  Best results are achieved with larger diameter blades (with high tip speed ratio) and a good understanding of how to match the generator load to what the blades can do over a range of windspeeds.  There is not much sign of these lessons being learned, unfortunately.
  • Towers at 17.40 we learn that “Most wind turbines fit on an inch and a half pipe”.  This confirms that Jeff’s experience is pretty much limited to the world of vehicle alternator wind turbines with diminutive blade rotors that can’t produce more than a few amps (or he would have already set fire to his extension cords).
  • 18.10 “you can simply take a pipe, stick it in the ground, concrete it in up to twenty feet” yikes!  that would get bent over pretty quickly where I live!  You need to put guys on the tower, fairly close up to the tips of the blades so as to support the pipe.  That is if you are generating serious power output.

I won’t get into my comments on the missouri wind and solar controllers here.  I have just touched above on a few of the problems I have with Jeff’s instruction material.  I hate to be negative about this, and I have no wish to start a big argument, but I can’t really leave this stuff out there without challenging it.

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64 Responses to Missouri Wind and Solar video

  1. Audun Muribø says:

    Hi Hugh. The history of this company (and many similar) is long, twisted and filled with dissatisfied customers. I am glad you can draw the attention of newcomers to RE-systems in the right direction.
    They have recently published some videos about their “Wind Boss” turbine. It looks strangely familiar 🙂 Maybe they are finally on the right track? It is sad though, that many people start a business without the proper knowledge to guide their customers in the right direction.
    Thanks again, for the job you do for the small wind community.
    Have fun rebuilding after the storm!
    Best wishes.
    Audun.

    • admin says:

      Hi, thanks Audun,

      The wind boss is from hurricane which is a different company, and yes finally getting on the right track.
      Hugh

      • vicky says:

        Hugh, I ran across this today, and saw that what you are saying has real merit. Thank you for your honesty, you probably saved me and my husband from being taken by that man in Missouri.
        ok see thishttps://youtu.be/a76QupYeuus

  2. Billy Jackson says:

    Thanks Hugh,

    Here’s his video response to you and linking a video is not stealing! But here is the video!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C36905t1Ewk

    There’s no reason for him to be upset cause your knowledge and mathematical formula’s he could ever comprehend!! Thanks for the info on not using aluminium without using steel for the hub!

    • admin says:

      Thanks for that. I expected him to be a bit upset (and he was – sorry for that Jeff!) but he did not address any of the technical issues I raised and simply tried to run down my approach to wind turbine construction. That’s a shame.

      Axial flux wind turbines are heavier technology but you get what you pay for in that respect. It would be good to see the cheap car-alternator based wind turbines perform as advertised. But from what I hear there are more disappointed people than happy ones. So it’s not the easy answer he claims it to be.

      Anyway I never meant this to become an argument about who offers the best deal to people. I simply wanted to make sure that people did not believe all of the above misconceptions listed in my posting. Spreading ignorance is a pity in this new world of unlimited information access.

      • advent35 says:

        More blades makes sense with vibration, radial engines with odd number of cylinders have always been used in aviation for other reasons (master rod) but vibration is one of them, harmonic balance. Three bladed propellers is more of a noise concern. Performance vs speed or quickness in aviation… sounded stupid when I looked at it. Larger the diameter the faster the tip speed. Increase the blade count and cut down on the diameter. Therefor the tip is no longer breaking the sound barrier and making that noise, now you have spread the load out by .3… I just am getting into this… 5 or so hours of thinking. Does the even number of blades make a difference in frequency, vibration. yes as dose spacing blade to pole, pole size oh shit the influences go on and on… (4.243 angels can dance on the head of a pin by the way) It’s the weekend, BBQ and beer. I will try to catch up with some data… math. If you want to laugh follow this discussion in RC forums. http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=189013

        • advent35 says:

          More blades makes sense with vibration, radial engines with odd number of cylinders have always been used in aviation for other reasons (master rod) but vibration is one of them, harmonic balance. Three bladed propellers is more of a noise concern. Performance vs speed or quickness in aviation… sounded stupid when I looked at it. Larger the diameter the faster the tip speed. Increase the blade count and cut down on the diameter. Therefor the tip is no longer breaking the sound barrier and making that noise, now you have spread the load out by .3… I just am getting into this… 5 or so hours of thinking. Does the even number of blades make a difference in frequency, vibration. yes as does spacing blade to pole, pole size oh shit the influences go on and on… (4.243 angels can dance on the head of a pin by the way) It’s the weekend, BBQ and beer. I will try to catch up with some data… math. If you want to laugh follow this discussion in RC forums. http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=189013

          • admin says:

            hi Advent(?) I have a rule of deleting comments on this post but yours is different in that you are not argumentative but technical, which merits a response. Single and two bladed wind rotors have serious vibration issues but upward from three run smoothly if correctly balanced. Larger diameter does not necessarily mean higher tip speed if you design the alternator correctly for low rpm. It is necessary to have a large rotor diameter to access useful power in low winds and you can do this with three blades quietly, and with the same tip speed as you would at small diameter. Since you have started to study the subject you should maybe learn the formula “power = half rho times swept area times cube of windspeed” where rho is air density. Swept are is very important and it goes with the square of the diameter. Windspeed is very important too. So you need a tall tower on a good site.

    • admin says:

      I have removed the embedded video so that now people have to click on a link instead to view the video if they want to see Jeff’s statements in their full context rather than just take my word. Jeff has admitted that he has made some mistakes and I wish he would stop spreading his misinformed views but for now it’s still there on his site misleading people.
      Hugh

      • Billy Jackson says:

        I seen he’s removed his complaint video about you, that’s good. But as for the real problem is E-Bay, State regulator’s and allowing the scam’s to go unchecked on these wind turbine so called companies to get rich!

        Thermodyne System’s is the only company that has chart’s that states you need a 70 mph wind to achieve the stated output, from a car PMA! That companies honest attempt’s at stating that, has put his sales in a tough situation. Let alone all the bashing MWS does to him like he started on you.

        Thanks for your sharing knowledge:)

        Billy

        • admin says:

          I don’t really worry about the stuff he says about me because it’s inevitable he will react like that and there is nothing I can do. There is no point in my starting to argue all of the additional misleading stuff he is saying (about me now). My main objective is to try to help others avoid falling into the trap of believing all the nonsense stuff he solemnly tells us in his instructional video. To me it is simply wrong to allow such misconceptions to be aired unchallenged. I am not happy about the fact that it hurts Jeff when I do this, but I have no choice in the matter. In short I am not looking for a fight here.

          It saddens me to hear from so many people that his wind turbines are a rip-off, but that is not what my original post was about. My critique of his video was simply to refute the majority of his bizarre assertions. He is plain wrong on a lot of technical stuff. That’s all I wanted to state.

        • Dallas Coomer says:

          I think that man Jeff is just very good at playing powerful and convincing people. But he seems just like a used car dealer also. All smoke and mirrors type stuff when hes in a video. Not a tough guy in reality I see.

  3. Bob Wankerton says:

    I would like to see the Missouri Wind and Solar units tested in a lab and real world conditions. Do you have access to a lab Hugh?

    • Dallas Coomer says:

      I would like to see them show the claimed watts actually being done. There is actually no one selling these that can put on on a tower and show they really do like they say it will. His claim that what he has is not still a car alternator is sorta stupid. It’s like saying since i poured my beer in a crystal glass, its then no longer beer! You go to be real dumb to believe that guy or people like him.
      All that guy did was take all the same parts and put them in a different container. Really dumb just to try and keep fooling people he is different than all the people making a buck with that worthless stuff.

      • admin says:

        The correct way to test wind turbines is to set up an anemometer next to them and measure the wind and measure the ouptput and log the results. We have done a lot of that here on Scoraig and found that on the whole the windmills exceed the output that is claimed in my book. Notice that the output is in kWh units of energy per month and not in kW of power. It’s the energy (average power) that matters in the end and that is what needs to be measured.

        I do have a neighbour with a hornet just installed next to one of my 2F design machines and I will go along and compare the output to gt a rough idea of which is more efficient. The hornet only has 5 foot diameter so it has a huge disadvantage. Size matters. Small blades cannot catch much wind.

        Hugh

        • Dallas Coomer says:

          I appreciate that test information when you get it.
          My brother in law bought into the sales schemes and spam videos from that Missouri guy about 2 years ago, and he spent over $2000 to end up with nothing in the end. He should have taken his talents in machining work and just built his own. Like that lady says on here, then you know what you have and got what you paid for.

          • admin says:

            One of the nice things about my designs is that you don’t need to do any machining. The processes are all low-tech and simple in terms of tools and skills.
            But my point in this post is not to promote my approach over others but to simply highlight the misconceptions that Jeff is promoting in this misleading video. I honestly don’t know much about his products and I hope they work better than people say.
            Hugh

  4. I have been really wanting to have a wind turbine company in America thats affordable. But here, we just get thieves who sell stuff that they will never show is laboratory or even mathematically possible.
    For over 2 years we have been watching videos on the internet to see if anyone in America selling wind turbines have been able to show a normal use of even as much as 1/2 of what they say it can do. Instead, you just get weirdos who are the makers friends boasting on how good NOT getting what you paid for is for us.
    Now me and my husband bought a welder and he is learning how to use it to build our own. Thats the ONLY WAY you will actually get what you pay for in small wind turbine stuff. You either build it yourself for your locations needs, or you get robbed by the dirty people selling stuff like that guy in Missouri has done.
    I am not sure if the link of wind parts is a good honest one but CMS has a lot of stuff to use.

  5. Dallas Coomer says:

    I would like to see them show the claimed watts actually being done. There is actually no one selling these that can put on on a tower and show they really do like they say it will. His claim that what he has is not still a car alternator is sorta stupid. It’s like saying since i poured my beer in a crystal glass, its then no longer beer! You go to be real dumb to believe that guy or people like him.
    All that guy did was take all the same parts and put them in a different container. Really dumb just to try and keep fooling people he is different than all the people making a buck with that worthless stuff.

  6. Alain Desrochers says:

    Hi Hugh!! I have seen this vid and i personnally think Jeff is misleading people on purpose to make them buy more stuff from him.. So, from a starter package of 690$, he intended to make 1 000$ out of it after dragging the custommer to buymore stuff to make it work as advertised.. I have a vid response on my youtube channel that was intended to him personnally.. He was raising hell over one of his custommer saying that you have to multiply the amps from each leg of his pma to get the total wattage..
    Since he is only selling Y configuration stator due to RPM limittation, that was debunked on my channel.. He always blame the custommer if they are unhappy with his product.. I called this BAD BUSINESS ATTITUDE… How can a guy show how to hook a system properly when he has no clue on how his gizmo is working Inside..

  7. James Biggar says:

    Thank you. Seriously. It’s really refreshing to see someone with competence and experience with wind turbine technology call these guys out on the nonsense they’ve been peddling to the unwitting. So many people have been duped, myself included – until I came across some of your literature a few years ago, and it’s only a matter of time until anyone else who’s serious about wind power does as well, and learns the truth. Just be careful with MW&S, they don’t have a history of playing ‘nice’ when they’re challenged. In fact, they’re probably scheming of a way to ruin your public rep right now.
    All the best, keep up the great work and thank you for being an inspiration!

  8. I see you say you have a Thermodyne PMA next to your home. Maybe since you good with data get a Freedom and a Thermodyne and do a side by side comparison, and let the companies that build the products see your opinion on the products. They may be toys compared to what you build and teach to build, but maybe it could put to rest the bickering between two companies and the people that work for them to discredit each other.

    I would like to really see your opinion’s and what you think on these products that are sold by the two companies with chart’s ect. I sure you have plenty of test Equipment for testing to wind turbines one from each company, it would be nice to see some one with you compassion and drive to give a real world review of these small wind turbines, I would like to see what you think is good and what is bad and what needs improved, Me I think 60 and 80 inch is to small and for direct drive with these small turbines anything larger and they will not work they will break the shaft and bearings can only handle so much weight. I think larger blades and gearing will get them up were they really want them if they would stop fighting and improve.

    I would really like to see a test preformed by you on these two company’s turbines. and let the results speak for them selves .

    • admin says:

      hi Charles,

      Thanks for your thoughtful contribution. I would be very happy to test out these wind turbines and provide objective data for their performance in all windspeeds. However this is time consuming and expensive to do and I would only end up being abused for producing the wrong answer (by the makers) and ignored by the public, since they don’t understand what is important.

      People think there is a single number of watts that you can use to describe a turbine and if you get one that is “1000 watts” then it will produce twice as much as one that is “500 watts”. Of course the reality is that for most of the time neither one will produce more than 100 watts, because the blades are too small and the wind is not strong enough, but that does not mean they are not good value for money! What matters at the end of the day is the kiloWatt hours (kWh) that they produce per year and although this may sound obscure, this is exactly the unit of energy that people pay for when they pay their electricity bill. So that is the number you will find that you need to know and in fact there is an international standard for reporting the performance of small wind turbines which states this.
      http://smallwindcertification.org/for-applicants/awea-standard/
      http://smallwindcertification.org/what-are-the-benefits-of-swcc-certification/
      “”AWEA Rated Annual Energy” is the calculated total energy that would be produced during a one-year period with an average wind speed of 5 m/s (11.2 mph)”

      I like small wind turbines and I like people who make them, but I do find the technical advice given by Jeff and others with similar products to be deeply flawed and misleading, and that is the only reason for my publishing the above rebuttal.

      Hugh

      • Taylor says:

        Your speaking to deaf ears. These guys I see all the time on You Tube just break the laws of everything known sacred. Most for them are just dogs following their owners, especially the Missouri crowd. You should see the garbage their dealers post on line. Sick attacks. The Other clowns who buy the junk are also sold a bill of goods and lies.
        Any one of these lonely losers who follow them folks who sell this junk are by no means intelligent or they would know they are being used.
        A few I have seen like those gents in Hawaii, Idaho usa, and Indonesia have bought the junk but altered it which shows smarts. The rest just keep buying the junk dealers garbage and a line of BS then swearing by it for the dealers benefit. Sorta tells the whole story too.
        BTW, If a guys product really worked, suing someone like the guy up here says is done would be fairly stupid in a world of 6 billion people. truthfully, no nasty words or bad reviews would stop you from selling it to the whole world if it did what you said, and at a cost thats as cheap as you speak of.
        Pure irony? Or outright scam is what I see.
        Got my 3rd Axial Built Hugh, 4th will be a VAWT but with numerous upgrades including swash plate governing.
        Take care, spring is coming soon. Our weather will be in fall soon and its so dry already here I wonder what winter I shall have.
        Taylor Keoboe

      • Alain Desrochers says:

        I don`t want to DRAMATISED this blog Hugh… But i think it`s important for you to know that Charles Mc Cune is a direct dealer for Jeff and have cause his share of trouble on youtube and some other public domain.. I just want you to know to take extra care of your exchanges with him.. Take his offer on the turbine,, I think you are the one that can came with unbias datas on what they claim for output.. Take care…

      • James Biggar says:

        Thanks for the compliment Charles, but you’re wrong in these accusations against me.
        “What saddens me with him is how he chose’s to bash as product he has never owned or even used, he just goes off others that are feeding out missguided information on a product what was at the time being sold by a company that was a dealer for a company Thermodyne.”

        I’ve never once bashed a product from any company – I give honest critiques of MW&S products just as I do Thermodyne products, and I’m pretty sure history would also show that I give credit where credit is due – and both MW&S and Thermodyne have gotten both constructive criticism and compliments from me on their products. There are pro’s and cons to both, as I’ve always said. The only ‘bashing’ that I’ve done is in response to the way I’ve been treated by Jeff for being honest and following the science of extracting wind power, and not his hype. You see, what’s playing out here between Hugh and Jeff is exactly what happened between he and I. I told him his blades worked better than Thermodyne’s when equally #/size is compared side by side, but I also said there was a lot of room for improvement and that he needs to get more technical with the design to progress it, and he loses his mind, insults me and goes out of his way to smear me in youtube videos like every other swollen ego self proclaimed ‘turbine king’ on there who can’t handle the fact that there’s a lot of innovation yet to happen, and nearly everyone involved in the on-line micro turbine market has a lot left to learn.
        The real issue that you have with me is who I choose to be associated with on-line. I’ll tell you this one more time, I can lend you a mutual respect only if you abandon this ridiculous sentiment, and get over the fact that I’ll befriend who I wish for any reason I choose. I don’t give my respect freely like others chasing handouts do, and especially not to people who don’t reciprocate it.

        As far as Hugh, he’s more than entitled to challenge any claim of truth that anyone makes and debate it in any suitable public forum with his peers – this is how a consensus on the facts is established – and I think it’s absolutely childish the way people have been responding with false accusations of ‘theft’, and ‘slander’ in an effort to ironically slander Hugh for making a genuine and honest critique (the accusation has to be true, to not be considered slander). It’s as if logic and reason doesn’t exist in the minds of Americans any more. If the global scientific community was watching, they’d shake their heads at this buffoonery. Hugh didn’t play the ad hominem tactic and attack Jeff’s character – just his claims, and there couldn’t be anything more right about it. Do you think people should be able to make unquestionable claims? I certainly don’t, and neither does most of the rest of the civilised world. As I said earlier, the problem here is the same problem that’s been had for the last few years with you guys – your egos fail to differentiate between a personal attack, and a scientific critique. Everyone just needs to RELAX, then they can think clearly and will eventually see what I and many others currently being turned away from a dwindling micro-turbine market see.

      • James Biggar says:

        FYI, my critiques and suggestions to Jeff about his products have always been based on the information he’s provided, and tested against basic wind turbine design theory. For instance, making a claim that a specific turbine can produce a certain peak output when it’s physically impossible because the rotor isn’t large enough to capture that much energy. There’s nothing wrong with a challenging a claim like that. What’s wrong is not responding to it with facts and intelligent debate, and throwing a temper tantrum because a claim wasn’t taken as an unquestionable, absolute truth, and throwing ad hominem character attacks at the dissenting voice to try to smear their reputation. The bottom line is that ‘innovators’ should be able to handle constructive criticism because it’s in everyone’s best interest.

        • Taylor says:

          You have a proof of think Mr Biggar, Nothing angers a man more then using his own ill said words to describe his own words and problems.
          After viewing many of his videos it appears he has no real knowledge of what he speaks of. But he is a very convincing orator. You can get that in a pub from a man seeking a lady too.
          A wallup of dust from his mouth, Americans say its bull, of his saying so much nonsense is good for him having ignorant people believe him and many do, but the man of smarts will be dodgy to his game for certain. That will be his own harm in the long way for sure.
          Turning it all off on that page and see you find a bit on tomorrow.
          Taylor Keoboe

        • Jeff Harmon says:

          First i would like to say my company name was mentioned on this blog as the Hornet Thermodyne wind turbine is similar to the Missouri Wind and Solar wind turbine which couldn’t be farther from the truth.
          My wind turbines are nothing like the Hornets , Ghost or whatever he’s calling them this week.
          I was a dealer for Thermodyne in California for a couple of years. I assembled and sold hundreds of his wind turbines, charge controllers and blades.
          1 – He has always told people to cut down the 28″ blades to 24 ” to get more speed and power which was BS. The clear blades are already cut down to 24 ”
          for a good reason, when they were 28″ the tips broke off in the wind. The tips broke off because they were to thin and NOT polycarbonite at all.
          2- the 7 magnet slant core pma which you have on your Ghost wind turbine was ALWAYS rated at 500 watts by Thermodyne then mysteriously they went 600 watts, 700 watts now 900 watts. LOL
          He did that to put people out of business and it worked.
          The 7 magnet slant core Delco car alternator PMA is 2 to 300 watts max, period, end of story. I flew those and tested them for years. They are a scam.
          After i decided the owner Ron Graeffe aka Bob Green of Themodyne Systems, Hydrogen Appliances, Windgeneering was a lying crook that couldn’t even tell the truth to his dealer which was me at the time i quit selling his junk. I told the world his charge controller would destroy your battery bank and it did. I told the world his blades were junk and they are and i even show how junky they are https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOMsSrUyn5g
          His blade hubs were 1/8″ thick and they warped so bad that the blades hit your tower and broke off.
          Damn right Ron Graeffe got mad at me for showing and telling the world his wind turbines and everything associated with them were dangerous , overrated and flat out a scam.
          His DC water heating elements we off the shelf $8.00 AC water elements with the specs melted off the plastic and he sold those for $69.00 for years until i exposed him on a video.
          Damn right he’s mad at me. I ruined most of his scams. So don’t make this blog about me, make it about the scam king himself and his dealer Les of Hornet wind in the UK.

          • Dan says:

            Jeff, I don’t think Hugh was blogging about the delco alternator wind generator market. He was blogging about your how too video, that has a lot of mistakes in it. I understand you are learning as you go, but you need to fact check before giving advice so people don’t learn to wrong information. The truth is as a wind turbine hobbiest, I enjoy watching people’s video on you tube, I’ll have to admit I get tired of people fighting over who’s hobby turbine is better, it’s childish at best. As far as I’m concerned all small turbines are toys for big boys. The only time I take them serious is when they are in a off grid situation, when 50 watts an hour is better than nothing. My advice to you is, get your thinking cap on and learn more! Describe your Wind turbines with realistic rating, and just be honest with people and work on your better business burral rating. The most important marketing information you can give is, small wind is a hobby not an appliance. Good luck!

      • James Biggar says:

        In your opinion, how should companies be rating their turbines so that people understand what they can expect from them? I know kwh’s, ie: production over time, is what’s important – most people who pay attention to their electric bill should understand this – but to explain for any unwitting potential buyers reading this, what should the standard be?

      • admin says:

        hi charles,

        “I know with the AC V’s DC debate has been going on since Westinghouse and Benjamin Franklin AC was proven to be able to transmit further at high voltage on a smaller line than DC at the time. but now with new Technology they are able to get DC up to the same high voltages as AC and have found it is cheaper to transmit same power in DC at high voltage as it is AC. ”

        It’s pretty simple really. The RMS voltage of the AC coming into the rectifier is lower than the DC voltage coming out. So the DC works better for transmission of power unless you use transformers. I do sometimes use them, and I do often use AC without them (for convenience reasons), but if you want the most efficient transmission then you need the highest voltage and without a transformer you are actually better off using DC in 2 wires.

        • Dan says:

          Hugh, I believe you mean the AC/DC debate had been going on since Edison/General Electric vs. Westinghouse/Tesla. But I know what your saying. What I have seen, at least working with the standard smart drive style PMA with a standard wound stator is that it is more economical to run wild polyphase AC current to the charge controller. In this case the charge controller would be MPPT to buck the voltage down providing higher current for charging. In the case of custom wound stators that provide the perfect “pocket” or power point, based on battery bank voltage and charging wind speed then rectifying at the stator makes perfect sence. Just follow ohms law on cable length and your job is done.

          • admin says:

            hi Dan,
            I am not debating here. I know the advantages of AC, and I have often wound special high voltage stators and used transformers to step the voltage down at the battery end. This can be tricky if the frequency is low but it’s generally cheaper than using a high voltage DC MPPT controller. AC is used widely for power transmision because it’s easy to use transformers to step the votlage up and down.

            That is not the debate. What I am doing is stating that you will get less loss from a DC cable than from a 3-phase AC cable feeding a rectifier (no transformers) to supply the same battery. It’s a widespread myth that 3-phase works better than DC but it’s simply untrue in the case where the AC voltage is below the DC voltage as in the case of a direct rectifier circuit like this. So no debate, just correcting the facts, sorry.

            cheers
            Hugh

          • Dan says:

            Hugh, I agree. I was referring to the war of current back in the turn of the century, that debate, not debating low current transfer between a turbine and battery bank. You are correct, as the misconception that you can run high current low voltage variable frequency polyphase AC with no loses an an 2/12 extention core. Ohms law tends to be pretty clear on this subject. I have always wanted to try a step down 3 phase transformer, very tricky indeed. I was thinking of using 3 transformers from a battery charger wired together in delta to delta but I’m not sure if the core needs to be one complete peice or if they can be run independently. I could wind my own transformer, but like you said very tricky.

      • Alain Desrochers says:

        Ok!! Enouf drama… The topic of this blog is about a Wind turbine dealer that has no strait knowledge on the subject but still sell product and DELIBARATELY mislead people…. I got PERSONNAL PROOF that Jeff dont have the knowledge and mislead knowing he can dupe the average Joe… I have e-mail sent to me by a lady that ask him question vs her choice of turbine he has on eBay.. She sent me the EXCHANGE of email she got from Jeff and ask me what i think of it when she cross over my channel on youtube.. Jeff is admitting that his product are NOT TESTED AND HIS CHART ARE BASED ON CUSTOMMER TESTEMONY… If Charles Mc Cune want to cover Jeff that his choice, but i dont want to distance myself from the subject.. If you need the emails i have received, i can send them to you Hugh.. You will see that lady was looking for strait ansewrs and was not satisfied with them…

  9. Billy Jackson says:

    Hugh,
    “Ignorance”, When you see the miss spelling and the rambling that comes from Ignorance! This show’s the nature of this person! He’s put thing’s on website for the one you speak of. And he even put women and children, people’s families( he has linked to his name on here! He has cookies tracking on it, to follow and to intercept email’s of anyone!! Which is illeagal!! So don’t click on his name!! ) on his own website, because he is a dealer for them!! In his ignorant thinking, he lies and mislead’s people, but yet think’s and believes in his delusional mind that he’s right! And I have one thing to say to ignorance!

    Have you ever heard the phrase “It’s better to be thought a idiot, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt?”

    Thanks Hugh for pointing people to the fact’s!

    Billy

    • Billy Jackson says:

      Hugh,

      Is your old dot com site shut down? Its seem’s it is. But just wondering.

      • admin says:

        that site has fallen over due to neglect but I will get it back up soon – sorry for the inconvenience!
        Hugh

    • Taylor says:

      I got to see that mans site. Not nice. He had people all over it to avoid but not much real describe for why other than he did not like them or their families. Very childish. Looks like them alternator fellows rule the roost though with so much activity. There used to be people who fought against the fake materials being sold and showed it but it looks like they joined them or gave up. Shame too. Mother always said the fight for truth is worth the scars of battle. Good miss, I think of her often.
      It takes a battle to get the truth but the truth is worth the battle because the easy way out is also a long road to regret. I spent years in the navy, got to be stationed in Chile and the corruption there made Darwin blues look like a day class for my tot back then.
      A man now using the net to show his lack of independence is all I see all about those alternators. A Humble has a Alternator, my boat has a Alternator but my cubby is a small wood unlike mothers home but I have now seen I am 60 years older, which is good now on pension so I build Hughs turbine 3 times now. So much wind in Darwin north. And I do have Solar. This is the first time I had to put my word here. But Hugh knows me to be quiet till now.
      I keep my mates in my closest corner even if a few are odd foots and people you speak of like that man Charles I keep of no interest. Best to you Mr Jackson that a friend is kept close and a odd man like that man Charles kept afar. He has no mind of his own or he could speak of his own accomplishments. And he has not a good disposition from what I read and have seen on tube. Neither does the man Jeff who is subject of Hughs read. He seems a big trickery at best. Not a man to show honor in his word to be so convincing and yet so wrong. Those gents are easy to correct when you show them.
      To bed for me, and great day to you gents. Good talk Hugh.
      Taylor Keoboe

      • James Biggar says:

        Hi Taylor, just wanted to say that Billy is one of the last few who continue to expose the frauds made on-line, and currently suffering a court battle over these issues. He’s a great guy.

        All the best!

  10. Boy Charles. You really know how to shovel the bull. You are trying to make people look bad, Just remember, the one with the most to say is the one who is the most guilty.
    Sounds like someone got in over his head. Too many years of getting away with things has made people sloppy. There is more than one person after you and your string master. You don’t have the ability to think for yourself. You brag about being a Marine, but you did nothing more than fix phones. You make it sound like you were some sort of a tough guy. Your not so tough.

    Sorry Hugh. This had to be said. This is not Billy Jackson as Charles would try to make you believe. Bill gets accused of everything because he has Missouri over the barrel in court. They just don’t want the real truth to be out in public eye. Your video is right on target. I found the same things you did. But I was forced to shut up. I was threatened and intimidated by these people. I happened to trip over this blog and decided it’s time to speak up. Lawsuit be damned. Bring it on.

    Just another disgruntled Missouri Wind and Solar customer.

  11. admin says:

    OK children enough.

    I will delete any future comments on this thread (and if I could be bothered I would go back and delete quite a few of the ones here already).

    Play nicely now!
    Hugh

    • steve yeager says:

      Hello everyone. I started trying to make my own power a few years back. I did a lot of experiments with bendini style pulse motors and even added a small 3 phase set up on the drive shaft. since then I started doing research on wind turbines. I did purchase a freedom, wish I never did but, a friend build the main body of a small axial with rotors that are only 7 7/8dia. I used 49 pound pull magnets and used #14 magnet wire and made a stator. I used a common 5 blade set up and it produced more power then the freedom. My next build is in the works, and based more on yours and Orlando/Olsen design. but I did post the results on youtube and that video was attacked. I made another video just showing the wind speeds / voltages /amps and that also was attacked. I was just trying to share information freely. I would really like to make my own blades , but my health conditions will not allow that. I have to ask friends for help. Best wishes to everyone’s projects. SD.

  12. vicky says:

    please let everyone know this https://youtu.be/a76QupYeuus

  13. John Turner says:

    Here I found an article that explains the advantages and disadvantages of solar energy and wind energy https://www.patriotdirect.org/solar-vs-wind-energy/ I hope it will be useful

  14. Steve Divens says:

    Wow, what a comical but intuitive thread.

    I am a newbie researching wind and solar and stumbled onto this thread. All I can say about Jeff’s videos and other information is this. Jeff provides what others do not; and that is informational videos.

    I grew up in the back woods of Pennsylvania. I lived in Missouri for for several years and have friends to this day there (nowhere near MW&S). I have a degrees in electrical engineering and telecommunication from Penn State. (No jokes please) And I presently work for a major phone company building their core 100-400gig+ data network. I am no dumbie and have a feel for people.

    I have read and viewed ‘all’ of Missouri Wind & Solar’s material with a fine tooth comb, (Hugh’s is next). Although what Jeff states may be not as accurate as it could or should be, it appears he is doing the best he can on educating people like with his limited budget. It may be easy for me to dispel and sift through some of what Jeff says because of my education, and I do agree he seems willing to correct of his incorrect material, given he is proven he is misleading. I do not believe his videos are purposely designed to mislead people, however, I can see how some may. His video’s are mostly unscripted, and could use a bit more professionalism, but I applaud him for his efforts to teach while others just try to sell.

    I read a lot of bashing in this thread, and saw very little productive to the point concise corrective criticism. Maybe some on this thread could redirect their negativity into something positive.

    Jeff’s latest video’s are of him building a wind tunnel. I think his heart is in the right place with his limited budget. And it would be nice if everyone could play together in the same sandbox. Maybe MW&S will someday have a comparison chart out for all to see, but then, I’m sadly afraid that too would be bashed.

    Let me get back to educating myself on getting off the grid.

    Cheers All,
    Life’s terminal, lets just have fun!

    • admin says:

      hi
      the gist of what you say is that Jeff is basically a helpful person doing his best. I wish I could believe that, but his world seems to be one that is full of a very unpleasant cut and thrust of bad feelings. Whatever the answer, that was never my question.

      When you state that “it appears he is doing the best he can on educating people like with his limited budget,” I have to disagree. I find that he is miseducating them and, that was the only reason I wrote my original post. I could forgive a few mistakes but his video is so full of misconceptions as to be quite damaging to people’s understanding of the issues. Whatever my personal opinion of Jeff’s character (and that opinion has descended several levels during this unsavoury process), I hang on to the original statement that this video is highly misleading and should not be shown. Jeff should stick to selling stuff, which he does very well indeed, and stay away from trying to understand the theory, which he does not understand at all. It’s tempting to repeat all my actual points of disagreement but you can read them above.
      Thanks for your comment though.
      Hugh

  15. Hello Hug. I have question to ask you. I have posted some bad comments on here on Billy Jackson. I asking if you could remove those comments if you could, I was wrong with posting person information like I did just because of anger, Billy is an OK guy. A lot hate was started because of a man witch you describe in your original post. And I would like to with draw my out of line comments I posed about Billy Jackson, Thanks in advance if you are able. to.

    • admin says:

      OK Charles, I gladly removed a lot of your comments. I hope the commentary still makes some kind of sense, but I have to admit that I never really took the trouble to read it all in the first place. Let me know if you still want more or all of your contributions taken out.

  16. Hugh Jaanus says:

    Nice information in your blog, I bought a freedom II from mwands.com.
    The housing is bare aluminium/aluminum and corroded inside and out within a year, The bearings went also within a year, which is how I knew the inside was corroded. Made in Vietnam………….
    Jeff claims his hubs are balanced, I went from 3 falcon blades to 5 raptor gen 5 blades and the vibration was horrendous (see my video on my YT channel), had to take it down and statically balance the assembly. Also the clearance in the bolt holes allowed up to 2″ difference between the tips of the blades adding to the vibration problem. Reading Jeff’s reply above, I do not believe he wrote that, as the spelling is very good, look at his postings on YouTube, the same could be said for Charles McCune Above he calls you “hug” “witch”(do they have schools in USA?) The spelling is shocking among the turbine community.
    I am just getting into this turbine/solar hobby, but there seems to be a lot of bashing of each other, I admit I am a troll, but I try to help others with their English.
    Thanks for the tech info.
    Hugh Jaanus

    • admin says:

      hi Hugh,

      I had a recent debate with Jeff “the King” (I am not sure of which dungheap) on youtube here. I am half amused and half disgusted by the way these guys bicker and bullshit their way through life but I can’t resist putting my point of view occasionally so I did. Anyway best not to waste too much time over it. The machine next door is still running so I am happy to see that.

      Hugh

      • David Vermont says:

        Hi just a note on what was said about using an extension cord, I had an Aleko 900 watt wind turbine hooked up too a bank of 3 120ah 12 volt batteries. A 10 awg cord was used between the turbine and bank. The 12 volt turbine wich used three faze wild ac, produced according to the rated power to wind speed. All turbines should include a chart of wind speed to power like it did. This is the only way to know the power of a wind generator/alternator. Anyway I am sure I had some voltage drop when the turbine hit full power, but I had more than I could handle anyway when that happened. The turbine blew the 40 amp fuse in the controller in a wind storm with this set up.

        • admin says:

          Did you feel how hot that cord got when the fuse blew? If that 40 amps were sustained for any length of time it would soon melt the insulation and the machine would grind to a halt with a short circuit. Yes you can use a short length of thin wire for a wind turbine (especially if cooled by the wind) but for 12 volt charging and long wire runs it’s more sensible to use a thick wire that does not waste so much power.

          Hugh

  17. David Vermont says:

    All power sources are rated by there peak power. It’s not a problem if a company does this. But what is important is a chart with the power output curve to wind speed.

    • admin says:

      It makes sense to rate an engine driven generator by its peak power, but it does not make sense for a wind turbine. For a wind turbine it makes sense to quote the average power (energy produced) on a typical site and this is the way they are rated by people who understand them properly. KWh of energy per year on a site with 5m/s average is the best rating.

      Hugh

  18. Dan says:

    Hugh nice blog! I have to say thanks for doing a write up on this subject. I have been a wind and solar hobbiest for about 15 years, I say hobbiest because I do not install proffesionaly, I am well versed in the principals and science of renewable energy production and I’m learning something new every day. What has boggled my mind is the amount of people trying to cash in on the “green” movement using less than honest business practices. With that being said I will agree with everything you said about the video that Jeff from MW&S posted to you tube. The fact remains that Jeff like I and many other people have been learning as we go, nothing wrong with that. However when you start doing how too videos when you are still learning you could very well be spreading misinformation, and sadly that is the case here. First and forth most we have science and mathematics to hopefully clear up any misinformation, now I’m not the greatest at math and algebra was never my strong point, but I do understand OhMs law. To be honest in the year 2016 if you don’t know the formula no worries, there’s an app for that. There are apps that will figure out cable run length, and thanks to OhMs law the science is pretty strait forward on that subject, no matter what kind of current you are transmitting. There is also many apps now a days that will calculate how much power you can extract from a wind generator using the tried and true formula, blade diameter, air density, wind speed, aerodynamic efficiency and electro machanical efficiency. With the simple input of those figures one can dispell any mythological output right away. Of course many companies will rate their generators any way they deem fit, some going as far as breaking the laws of physics. Without rambling on and on, I suppose my recommendation is, homework at home, do the math before buying anything and don’t trust a how too video on you tube as gospel.

  19. Michael Bromley says:

    This video, like so much of the You Tube commercial free advertising material on the subject, is like watching a trailer for ‘Deliverance’.There is very little info out there at all on PMA performance with most suppliers waffling on without providing any facts about what the unit they are selling is capable of. There are ads for PMA’s on eBay that make absolutely no reference to output at all…are there people out there that buy them? My interest is a hydro application and I am horrified at just how much energy the PMA soaks up before it starts meaningful power output. Sure it produces circa 150 watts at 300 rpm but I have measured the input power requirement at over 200watts to get it to turn at this speed when disconnected from any load. This sort of info related to overall efficiency would surely be a basic starting point in assessing the suitability of any unit. As a hobbyist novice having spent many hours checking articles and advertising claims on line, it seems to me that there is a woeful lack of reliable guidance out there, particularly in relation to the material offered by some of our pals across the pond. A good business opertunity for others perhaps who can do the job more professionally

  20. Chris Esterhuyse says:

    Hi Hugh,

    I have always read your articles with great interest as it is obvious that you know considerably more than the average man on street about wind power. People like Jeff do not realize that the power of wind depends on the rotor size and not the amount of blades. Some of these (Chinese) machines have a claimed Cp of >180% at low wind speeds! Not only breaking Betz’s law but also the law of physics. I had a few wind turbines at my home (living totally off grid as there is no grid electricity) and the best performers are the slow speed machines with relative larger rotors (AWP 3.6 and Jacobs 60, the latter sadly been destroyed by a strong turbulent wind). High speed (rpm and TSR) machines do not work – too much wear and tear and friction. I am no expert, but this is my (expensive) experience thus far.

    Please keep up the good work.

    Regards.

  21. DB says:

    After hearing that statement about avoiding solid core wire for DC use in the Missouri Wind and Solar video, anything else they say just can’t be believed.

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